Once Saved, Always Saved IS WRONG

Proof from the Gospels

Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." ~ Note: Part of the meaning of the word saved, from the Greek word sozo, is to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement. The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). This being saved is clearly conditional. We must endure to the end. To endure means to remain, not to recede or flee, to preserve under misfortunes and trials, to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ, to bear bravely and calmly ill treatments. It’s the same word here: If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us - 2 Timothy 2:12. We must endure through whatever comes our way all the way until we die with Him in our lives, then we will live and reign with Him. If we wind up denying Him before the time of our death, you can’t get around the word of God here, He will deny us.

Matthew 24:24,25 - "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." ~ Note: The word deceive also means to cause to stray, lead aside from the right way, to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led away into error and sin. That is definitely the loss of salvation because it means to be severed or fallen away from the truth. They will stray and be led aside from the right way. They will be led away into error and sin. We have no license to fall back into the bondage of sin again. Some people want to think this Scripture means that it is not possible when He said "if possible," but Christ would not have said this just to be playing games with us by there being no way it can happen. The word for beforehand also means to say before the event: prophecies. This was Christ telling us that it would happen. So don’t be deceived that you can’t be deceived, or then you may wind up one of those who do in fact get deceived.

Luke 12:45,46 - "But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." ~ Note: Someone can be a servant of Christ then start the practice of sin again and not be ready for eternal life when Christ comes back. This person will go where the unbelievers go. Verses 47 and 48 prove there will be varying degrees of punishment in hell. It will be worse for the ones who lose their salvation. 2 Peter 2:20,21 also proves this.

THE PARABLE of THE SOWER

Luke 8:5-8 - Jesus said, "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. Some fell on rock, and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" ~ Note: If you can hear then you ought to know that in order for someone to wither away they had to once have a good life in the body of Christ. Someone can’t wither away if they were never saved to begin with, because if they were never saved then they never had life that could wither away.

JESUS then explained THE PARABLE of THE SOWER

Luke 8:11-15 - Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (Note: These people do not become believers after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin). But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (Note: For a time they were born-again believers. It’s the common word for believe, pisteuo. They had saving faith. They had the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative of law and soul. That is what to believe means. In other words, they had the power of God within them to drive them to have a distinctively superior advantage of having their souls obey His moral law, but they only did it for a while.) and in time of temptation fall away (Note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn’t resist the temptation when they were enticed to sin. The word for fall away means they depart, desert, withdraw, fall away, whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They became faithless. They got that way because they fell for the temptation of sin.)" The people who say that the ones who fall away were not real believers contradict God’s word, because it clearly says they believed for a while. Plus you can’t fall away from something if you were never with it to begin with.

"Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity." ~ Note: To go out also means to pursue the journey on which one has entered. They had entered into a life with Christ; but while seeking where that life would lead them, their fruit did not mature. They got choked. It means to choke utterly the seed of the divine word sown in the mind. Riches (wealth, abundance of external possessions) and pleasures (lust) is what caused it. I will show you later that you need to bear good fruit.

"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (Note: The word for keep means hold fast, keep, stay in regards to from going away. This is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to stay faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." ~ Note: The word for patience more correctly means enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings. To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved in remaining a believer, since He says we must keep it and persevere. Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.

TASTELESS SALT is WORTHLESS

Luke 14:34,35 - Jesus said, "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" ~ Note: Jesus’ point is that the same is true of a saltless disciple. He will be thrown out. The word for salt also means wisdom and grace exhibited in speech. The word for lost its flavor also means to be foolish, to make flat and tasteless. So watch what you say. Don’t be foolish and tasteless in what you say, have grace in your speech. ~ I’ve seen it denied that this has anything to do about how we talk, but look at this other Scripture with the same Greek word in it, and you will see that is IS about what we say. ~ Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one. ~ That clearly proves salt means having grace in your speech. The way we talk can make us lose our salvation.

THE PARABLE of THE LOST SON

Luke 15:13 - Jesus said, "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living." ~ Note: The verb for wasted means to scatter abroad, disperse. So this is doing something like what we call "throw your money away." The word for prodigal means riotous, dissolutely, profligately. These words mean immoral, corrupt, extremely wasteful, recklessly extravagant. So the son took his inheritance and squandered it all away living a recklessly extravagant lifestyle. But when he came to his senses (came to himself in 15:17. It doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit convicted him. He had to personally choose what to do), repented, and turned back to his father, he said this…

Luke 15:21 - "And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son." ~ Note: This guy knew he fell into the bondage of sin and was no longer considered worthy to be a child of God, but his father said…

Luke 15:24 - "’for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry." ~ Note: The word for dead here means spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God because given up to trespasses and sins. The word for alive again here means to be restored to a correct life, of one who returns to a better moral state. The words restored and returns ("alive again&quot are actions of things that once had it, then did not have it, then had it again. The words dead and alive again clearly mean that the son had lost his salvation but later got it back. You probably know that the words lost and found are about someone who is or is not going to heaven. Clearly, this parable explains that someone can be a child of God, then leave God and start the practice of sin, and become dead and lose their fellowship with God, because God just said that "he was lost." Unless, of course, one comes to their senses, repents, and turns back to God like I did after I backslid and in the way it is portrayed in this parable. Then they will be "alive again." But just because this parable has a happy ending, it doesn’t mean that it always turns out this way. The Scriptures I have on my site will prove this; but first, another happy ending…

Luke 22:31,32 - And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! (Peter) Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat (Note: The word for sift means by inward agitation to try one’s faith to the verge of overthrow. You see, Satan can try to get you to overthrow your faith). But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail (Note: I see the Lord implying that it is possible that our faith could fail. If that were to happen, then we would no longer have the condition to receive grace, and our relationship with God would cease); and when you have returned to Me (Note: The word for returned means turn again, turn back, come back in regards to the love and obedience of God. That’s pretty simple to understand. It is possible to stop obeying God. Then we would need to turn back to Him.), strengthen your brethren." ~ Note: Peter was dangerously close to having his faith failing when he denied that he knew Jesus 3 times. This was when Satan was sifting him. It is a good thing Jesus prayed for him so that he did not totally abandon Jesus. Since Peter was in danger of his faith failing, we should also be aware of this possibility. I don’t see how anyone who studies the bible can believe in "Once Saved, Always Saved." There is strong proof from the gospels that it is a false doctrine.

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Trusting the Faithful and discreet slave

In the Watchtower Society’s recently updated organizational book "Organized to Do Jehovah’s Will", chapter three discusses trusting in the faithful and discreet slave. I will address some of the points in this chapter. Due to space and publishing too much copyright material I will selectively post quotes from each paragraph. The book was online but is no longer available.

In the first paragraph I see a major contradiction in the way the Society interprets this scripture and what it actually says. Here is what the WT says.

"Jesus indicated that the "slave" would be busy during the time of the end.
"That slave" would be entrusted with oversight of Kingdom
interests on earth and have the serious responsibility of providing
God’s people with spiritual food "at the proper time." In this
connection Jesus further stated: "Happy is that slave if his master
on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint
him over all his belongings."

Matt 24:45-47
45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.

Notice there are two appointments given out here. One is to supply food at the proper time until Christ arrives and the second is a reward for doing so when Christ arrives. The Watchtower is saying these two appointments are one in the same. How so? They teach that they were appointed the FDS in 1919 because of passing a inspection by Christ and therefore were worthy of being the FDS in order to supply food. But yet the reason they became the slave is because they said they were supplying proper and timely food before 1919! Can you see how this contradicts the scripture? It does not say the slave is appointed over all of Christ’s belongs so he can provide timely food, no, but it says the slave is appointed to supply food at the proper time THEN when Christ arrives in his glory he will reward those who supplied the food at the proper time.

If the Watchtower was only appointed as the FDS in 1919 then how is it that Christ has arrived before that time? Was not the slave suppose to be supplying food from the time of its first appointment? When was the FDS appointed? The Watchtower answers that question in the next paragraph.

"the faithful steward, the discreet one," must symbolize the composite body of
Christ’s spirit-anointed footstep followers who live on earth at any
given time."

If the Watchtower really believes this then they have to admit the first appointment of the slave for providing food at the proper time happened back in the days of the apostles and that throughout the centuries there have been slaves of Christ providing or not providing timely food. This also means that ALL these slaves would be inspected and judged, either worthy or not, to inherit all Christ belongings when he arrives in his glory. When we look at the Watchtower’s interpretation of things none of this can be true. How could ALL Christ’s slaves throughout the centuries be inspected and judged during the years 1914-1919? Even the Watchtower points out that it was all those alive at the time (1914-1919) who were claiming to be Christ’s slaves that were inspected. Where does that leave the rest from the past? When will they be inspected? If they have already been inspected why haven’t they been resurrected to be part of the fulfilment of the reward that happened in 1919? If any of them were faithful slaves they would surely be part of the second appointment of inheriting ALL Christ’s belongings.

What are Christ’s belongings?

In the next paragraph we see the Society’s explanation of Christ’s belongings.

"What, then, are the "belongings"? These are all the spiritual assets on earth that have become Christ’s property in connection with his authority as heavenly King."

Is this really Christ’s belongings? What scriptures are used to support this assumption? NONE! Christ already has been given all authority on earth and heaven and he will share this authority with those who become Kings and Priests with him in the Kingdom of God. So wouldn’t Christ’s belongings be everything on earth and in heaven and if you are given these belongings because of your faithfulness, it means you have a share in his authority over them? Does Christ just own a few million witnesses and Watchtower property? Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it? Also when Christ becomes King, is not ALL creation subject to him?

(Matt 28:1 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”

When Christ becomes King the whole world will become his kingdom. Those slaves who are worthy and found providing timely food upon Christ arrival will inherit all of his belongings which will be the Kingdom of the world and they will rule and judge mankind with Christ .

(Luke 22:29) and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

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The Ultimate Hypocrisy & Apostasy

Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)?

Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:

“Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds.”—P. 6.

Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah’s Witnesses in one of their meetings.

Many persons think of the “Y” simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:

“The Young Men’s Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men.” (Italics added)

While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA’s main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the “Y” cannot be ignored.

‘But,’ some may sincerely wonder, ‘is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA?’ The answer must be “Yes.” Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local “Ys” are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication Christian and Open:
Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:

“From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .

“But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced. . . .

“In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours. . . . “

Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:

“From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ. . . .

“The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people.”

Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCA’s World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:

“It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians . . .

“When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue. . . .

Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Men’s Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church.

. . . Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are ‘valuable auxiliaries’ of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity.”—The Christian Century, June 10, 1964.
And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article “Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!”, stated:

“Realizing that the Christian identity of the ‘Y’ has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor. . . . It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves.”

Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.

In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called “Christian” association would amount to apostasy.

Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.—1 Cor. 8:11-13.

Jehovah’s Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that “bodily training is beneficial for a little.” Yet it adds that “godly devotion is beneficial for all things.” (1 Tim. 4: That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is “God” in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendom’s churches and as is still included in the “Paris Basis” of the YMCA.—1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.

While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves.’” (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped “with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of that organization.
Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCA’s existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:

“YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter.”—Encyclopædia Britannica, Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.

“In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 ‘delegates’ were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers. . . .

In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments.”—The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.

“YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces.”—
The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.

This kind of service under the name “Christian” was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.

Copywrite Watchtower Bible & tract Society.

Notice all the highlighted sections. Then consider the things that I will present next. First will be proof of the Watchtower using the facilities at the YMCA for giving talks and baptizing people in their pools. If it is so wrong to join the YMCA just use the facilities or pay a onetime fee to use their facilities then why did the Watchtower use them?

Notice these quotes from some Watchtower Publications:

1977 Year book:

“An avid reader of The Watch Tower, Joseph learned that Brother Russell, while on a world tour during 1912, would visit India. Madras City was to be visited, so Joseph seized the opportunity to hear Russell and gain a personal interview. At Madras, Brother Russell lectured in the YMCA Hall and, though his schedule was full, he granted Joseph a personal interview lasting two hours”

“Our brothers lodged at the YMCA Hostel and worked the residential homes scattered about on the steep hillsides. Paths led zigzag-fashion up the mountainsides, making house-to-house work somewhat laborious. Skinner, being a little younger and having a more robust constitution than Wright, took the higher elevations. Meanwhile, Brother Wright, who had a poor heart condition, visited the lower slopes. Much literature was left in the homes of these people.”

“We had our circuit assembly at the YMCA Hall in Chowringhee, where it was good for me to meet the Bengali-speaking brothers for my first time.”

1991 year book:

“James said: “I read that a Japanese lecture would be given at the Nuuanu YMCA in Honolulu on the subject ‘Millions Now Living Will Never Die.’ This was something so different from what I had heard before, so I decided to attend. Since the advertisement invited us to bring our Bibles, I did so. I was very impressed with the speaker, who answered from the Bible all the questions asked. I filled out a slip of paper saying that I wanted to study the Bible.” This led him to the group study of 12 persons that comprised all the Bible Students associating together in 1926. James Nako progressed quickly and was baptized in July 1927″

08/01/1957 Watchtower:

Inexorably, as with all assemblies, the final day of the Manila assembly arrived. A crowded day it was. Baptism was scheduled as the first thing in the morning. The questions directed to the candidates for baptism to determine their worthiness for it were asked in as many dialects as were spoken by the candidates, besides in English—in Tagalog, Ilocano, Cebu-Visayan, Hiligaynon-Visayan, Bicolano, Samareno, Pangasinan, Pampango, Zambel and Ibanag. In spite of the difference of language all were alike in being dedicated to the same God Jehovah and in understanding his kingdom truth. Accordingly, 279 were favored with baptism in the YMCA swimming pool, not far from the Rizal Stadium, where 6,572 had heard them answer the decisive questions affirmatively.

07/15/1951 Watchtower:

That afternoon we joined in a meeting with the publishers and people of good will. I started to talk at 2:15 and a brother interpreted in Indonesian. At 3:30 Brother Henschel spoke and his talk was interpreted in both Indonesian and Dutch. I then summed up for 45 minutes with two interpreters. The meetings were held at the YMCA, and 37 were present. Most of them were Chinese, but there were Indonesians and others present too. They expressed great appreciation following the meeting and then showed their desire to comply with all theocratic requirements.

As far back as 1885 the Watchtower recognized that the YMCA was “completely under the control of sectarians, by whom they are supported and long recognized the YMCA as promotors of interfaith.” Why then was it ok for them to use the YMCA facilities to give talks, baptize people and lodge in the rooms?

I was a member of the YMCA before I became a witness. I was never required to accept or endorse their objectives or principles as a member. All I was required to do was pay a membership fee, thats it! If I was to the join the YMCA as a baptized witness, it would be considered apostasy!

The Watchtower lays down these commands but does not abide by them. Thats why they think it is ok to join the United Nations as an NGO as long as it was only for library access! In doing so they had to meet the requirements for becoming and remaining an NGO which means to publicly build support for the UN goals and programs which they indeed did.

http://www.pitn.net/

Completely off the subject

One of the best videos ever