The Religious Stuff..& all things are possible except skiing through a revolving door

November 26, 2007

Questions from Readers: Heaven and earth destroyed?

Filed under: Christianity, Questions — Admin Staff @ 3:41 pm
Question:
Based on the JW school of thought that the earth will not be LITERALLY destroyed - how do you explain these verses?
  Click here to go to Discussion board with your comments.

2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

« Last Edit: Today at 2:37pm by gw »  

Truth

Filed under: Christianity — Admin Staff @ 3:28 pm

Are we actually living in the last days? Ask any fundamentalist and they will answer in the affirmative. So what does living in the last days mean? Are we talking about the collapse of civilization or the honest to goodness bible version of the great tribulation and the final battle of armaggedon?

Will Christians be in the middle of it or will they be “raptured” away.

This conversation can be commented on and discussed on our forum by clicking here.

Why we dont subscribe to the gap theory

Filed under: Christianity — Admin Staff @ 1:29 pm
Tags: ,

The gap theory is not as popular among Christians as it used to be. And this is just as well, because it doesn’t harmonize well with either the Bible or science. That is why no Christian geologist could accept it, and neither can most theologians.

The gap theory is the idea that between the first two verses of the Bible (Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2) there was a great gap in time. The theory goes roughly like this:

  • God created the universe billions of years ago.
  • Then the geological ages proposed by evolutionists took place over billions of years of earth’s history.
  • Life-forms arose during that time that are now preserved in the fossil record, and these fossils allegedly verify that the geological ages took place.
  • At the end of the geological ages, Satan rebelled in Heaven and many angels followed him.
  • God then cast Satan down to earth, the earth underwent a huge disaster or cataclysm, and it was left without form and void, with darkness on the face of the deep (as described in Genesis 1:2).
  • God then re-created the earth in the six literal days of creation described in the first chapter of Genesis.

Attempt to beat evolutionists

Perhaps we should not be too hard on those Christians who revived the gap theory in the late 1800s. This was a time when Charles Darwin’s ideas and the theory of evolution were wrongly starting to be promoted as fact. Many Christians were looking for a way to explain how the Bible could be true in the face of what they thought were facts casting doubt on the Bible’s trustworthiness.

The Bible, as Irish Archbishop James Ussher had worked out a couple of centuries earlier, at face value indicates that the earth is only thousands, not billions, of years old.

The gap theory seemed to provide an answer. Billions of years could be dumped in a “gap” that was thought may exist between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The idea gained support from Thomas Chalmers, George H. Pember, and later from C. I. Scofield, whose generally superb Scofield Reference Bible became sadly tarnished when its notes included support for this flawed theory.

Problems with the gap theory

The modern creationist movement, particularly in such scholarly groups as the Institute for Creation Research, Answers in Genesis, the Creation Science Movement (formerly the Evolution Protest Movement), and many others, have shown not only that the gap theory is unnecessary (because the Bible’s young-earth position is supported without compromise by thousands of highly qualified scientists), but that it is simply wrong.

Here are just a few of the problems with the gap theory:

  • The idea that the geological ages took place between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is plainly refuted in God’s Ten Commandments, in which God said, “In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is” (Exodus 20:11). God was telling people that the pattern He set at creation, of six days work followed by a day of rest, was to be the pattern for mankind’s working week.
    Note that this verse in Exodus covers both Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. In six days God made “heaven and earth” (Genesis 1:1), and “the sea, and all that in them is” (Genesis 1:2 onward). There is no room for a gap, because this statement in Exodus covers both Genesis 1:1 and the verses after it … all in the six days!
  • The Bible says there was no sin or death until humans caused them to come into the world. But the gap theory would have billions of years of suffering and death, represented by the fossils and rock layers in the earth’s crust, which are supposed to identify the geological ages.
    The gap theory proposes that at the end of the geological ages Satan sinned, was cast down to earth, and there was a great cataclysm. So the geological ages with countless deaths recorded in them would have occurred before either Satan or humans sinned, which is the opposite of what the Bible says.
  • The whole concept of the geological ages is based on the evolutionary assumption that things have continued the same in the past as in the present. Therefore there is no room in the geological ages system for the cataclysm interrupting the processes that gap theorists need. This is why no geologist would accept the gap theory.

The gap theory is an unfortunate compromise position taken by those who either don’t understand the implications of the theory or don’t love Scripture enough to take the Bible on what it clearly says. The gap theory is unscientific, unscriptural, and absolutely unnecessary.

Alpha and Omega

Filed under: Christianity — Admin Staff @ 11:30 am


The claim is made that the book of Revelation shows that not only is Jehovah the Alpha and Omega, but that Jesus is also. If this were true (we don’t believe it is) all this would prove is that in some way the title Alpha and Omega is applied both to Jehovah and to Jesus; it does not prove that Jesus is his God. <!– In Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12 we find the expression “first and last” used of Yahweh. From Isaiah 44:6,7 this expression, “first and last” appears to mean “first and last” in might (godship), being the source of all might, something which the false gods of the heathen cannot claim. However, most of our trinitarian and oneness neighbors appear to read into this expression ‘eternal’, although there is nothing in the scritpures to warrant this meaning.

In the last book of the Bible, we again find this expression “first and last”. At least twice it is applied to Jesus in Revelation 1:17 and Revelation 2:8. Thus our trinitarian and oneness neighbors would have us accept this as proof that Jesus is Yahweh, since the phrase is applied to both Yahweh and Jesus. The phrase appears also in Revelation 22:13, where Yahweh applies it to himself.

Another similar phrase found in Revelation 21:6 and 22:13 is “beginning and the end”. These scriptures apply to Yahweh; thus this phrase is not applied to Jesus. –>

We find this phrase — Alpha and Omega — in Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13 — all three of which refer to Yahweh. This phrase is therefore not used of Jesus.

Looking at Revelation 1:1, we note that the Revelation is from God who gave it to Jesus. (This should be enough to prove that Jesus is not his God.) The message is delivered through an angel to John. In Revelation 1:4 John says the message is from the Father, Yahweh, who is and who was and who is to come. Then in verse 5, John says: “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” Many translations make a distinction between Jesus and “his God” in Revelation 1:6, as, for instance, The World English Bible translation: “he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.” Thus John identifies two individuals which the messages are from, the Father, Yahweh, and Jesus, God’s Son.

Then in verse 8 we find the quote: “�I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End’, says the Lord God, �the being who was and who is to come — the Almighty.’”

“The Lord” in this verse is Yahweh, not Jesus, as shown from Revelation 1:4. The phrase “Lord God” is based on the later Septuagint usage of substituting Kurios for Yahweh. The Hebrew phrase is Yahweh Elohim. The later Septuagint has substituted Yahweh with Kurios [Lord] and Elohim with Theos [God]. This can be seen by comparing Acts 3:22; 7:37 with the Hebrew of Deuteronomy 18:15. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the NT, it is in reference to Yahweh, the Father of our Lord Jesus. — Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6. See our study on The Divine Name.

Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”. These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
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Some Christian translators in the past, in translating the Greek to Hebrew, have inserted the tetragrammaton into Revelation 1:8. The following are some Hebrew translations that contain the tetragrammaton in Revelation 1:8: NT, by W. Robertson, 1661; NT, by J. C. Reichardt, 1846; NT, by J. C. Reichardt & J. H. R. Biesenthal, 1866; NT, by F. Delitzsch, 1981 edition; NT, by I. Salkinson & C. D. Ginsburg, 1891.
See also our study on Revelation 1:8

The fact that the NT Greek manuscripts we have give a substitute for God’s name does not take away the fact that it is Yahweh, not his Son Jesus, who is speaking in Revelation 1:8.
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See our study on: The Divine Name in the New Testament

In verses 9 and 10 John refers to himself when he heard a loud voice, as of a trumpet, (verse 11) saying, “Write what you see….” This quote is from Jesus, not Yahweh, as described in the following verses. In verse 18 Jesus says: “I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.” Jesus was actually dead and not alive anywhere, if this is to make any sense at all, for he contrasts his being dead with being alive forevermore. Now we know that God cannot die, so Jesus is thus by this verse proved to not be God Almighty.

Many translations have the words added in verse 11, before the word “Write”: “I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.” However, this sentence does not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts and therefore does not appear in many Bible translations, and thus we do not include them as part of our discussion.

Let us now examine Revelation 21:6 in its context.

Revelation 21:5 He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Revelation 21:6 He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give freely to him who is thirsty from the spring of the water of life. Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

If these are the words of Jesus, then they could only be applied to him in a manner similar to Isaiah 9:6, concerning the time when he will be the Mighty Power and Everlasting Father to the regenerated human race in the age to come. — Matthew 19:28; Romans 8:19-21.

Nevertheless, he who sits on the throne in the book of Revelation is spoken of as the God of Jesus (Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12), and is distinguished from the Lamb. (Revelation 5:1-7; 5:13, 6:16, 7:10,15) Applying this to the One sitting on the throne in Revelation 21:5 would mean that these words are the words of the God of Jesus, not Jesus himself, although they were delivered by Jesus to the angel who delivered them to John. (Revelation 1:1,2) Many, if not most, trinitarian Bible scholars acknowledge that the words of Revelation 1:5 are spoken by God the Father as distinguished from the Lamb, but some vaguely, and often without any reason for doing so, will claim that the one being quoted in verses 6 and/or 7 is Jesus. It should be apparent that the one being quoted verses 5-7 are all the “one who sits on the throne”.

These words of Revelation 21:7 are not directed to the believers of this age, but to the world in the age to come, in the day of judgment and regeneration of the world, although indirectly they are applicable, since the believers in this age are reckoned, counted, imputed (Strong’s #3049) with the blessings and powers of the age to come, having received the spirit as a token, earnest, as first fruits, of that which is to come. –Romans 4; 6:11; 1 Corinthians 1:21,22; 5:17; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:3-14; Hebrews 6:5; 12:23; James 1:18.

Now we come to Revelation 22:13. Many feel sure that this is Jesus speaking, since the one speaking tells of his “coming”, and in Revelation 22:20, Jesus says: “I come quickly.” And John exclaims: “Amen! Come, Lord Jesus.” This overlooks the fact that the scriptures speak of Yahweh coming, and also of Jesus coming, and that the two are closely associated. This does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh. Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, comes to judge the world, not only with and by means of Jesus, but also the saints. — Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Daniel 7:18,22; Isaiah 40:10,11; Micah 1:3; Zechariah 14:5; Acts 17:31; 2 Peter 3:7,8; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Psalm 90:4; Jude 1:14,15; Revelation 1:1; 20:4,11-13; 22:6. (See side panel.)

Below we quote Revelation 22:6-21 with our comments in brackets [].

Revelation 22:6 He [The angel mentioned in Revelation 21:9] said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord [Yahweh], the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show to his servants the things which must happen soon.” [This agrees with Revelation 1:1-5, that the revelation is from God through Jesus, and delivered by an angel.]
Revelation 22:7 [Note the abrupt change; the angel suddenly quotes someone as coming:] “Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” [Many claim that the one coming is Jesus; however, this could also be speaking of Yahweh. More than likely, since the angel was just referring to Yahweh, the God of the spirits of the prophets, the angel is quoting Yahweh.]
Revelation 22:8 [John again changes and speaks of himself:] Now I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. When I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who had shown me these things.
Revelation 22:9 He [the angel] said to me, “See you don’t do it! I am a fellow bondservant with you and with your brothers, the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
Revelation 22:10 He [The angel] said to me, “Don’t seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22:11 He who acts unjustly, let him act unjustly still. He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. He who is righteous, let him do righteousness still. He who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Revelation 22:12 [Very abrupty the angel begins to quote someone else again:] “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. [The God of Jesus judges the world through Jesus, and each man will get his praise from God. -- Acts 17:31; Romans 2:16; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy 4:1]
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
Revelation 22:14 [This is evidently the angel speaking:] “Blessed are those who do his [God's] commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
Revelation 22:16 [Now the angel quotes Jesus:] “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star.”
Revelation 22:17 [This is probably the angel speaking:] “The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ He who hears, let him say, ‘Come!’ He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.”
Revelation 22:18 [John suddenly quotes Jesus:] “I testify to every man who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:20 [John writes] He [Jesus] who testifies these things says, “Yes, I come quickly.” [John responds:] Amen! Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. — World English Bible translation, with quotation marks slightly adjusted from that used in the World English.

But let us assume that Jesus is the one speaking in Revelation 22:12,13, as many have claimed. All this would mean is that these titles or phrases applied to Yahweh are also applied to Jesus. Does this mean that Jesus is Yahweh, the God who is identified also as the Father and God of Jesus? Absolutely not!

First we note that none of the passages say that the Father is the Son, or even that the Son equals the Father. Nor do any of these passages directly say anything about the non-creation of either the Father or the Son.

One must admit that just because the same title is applied to individuals, this does not make these two individuals one individual. Else every ruler who has ever used the title “king” would have to be the same individual as every other ruler who has used the title “king.” Each ruler who uses this title, however, uses it with respect to his peculiar realm of domain and time. Thus just because the same titles are given to both the Father and the Son does not mean they are the same being. There are many Bible Students that do apply the term Alpha and Omega to Jesus, but do not see this as having any meaning that Jesus is Yahweh. Some links are provided below that present this argument (We do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given by the authors).

http://tinyurl.com/db2db
Revelation for the End of the Gospel Age

http://tinyurl.com/8ggll (PDF FILE)
Notes on the Book of Revelation, By Ludlow Loomis

http://tinyurl.com/b5nsf (PDF FILE)
Revelation - A Notebook of the Study Records of the New Albany Ecclesia

http://tinyurl.com/dh7gt (PDF FILE)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, by R. E. Streeter

While Yahweh has existed from eternity past, the expression, Alpha and Omega, applied to him, does not especially apply to the Father’s being from eternity, nor do the expressions, “the beginning and the end”, or “the first and the last”, except that it could be stated that Yahweh is the beginning and end of all who have existed from eternity past. As discussed in our study on “Beginnings”, the word “beginning” does not mean eternity, either past or future, but rather it usually denotes a point in time when something begins, or it used of a person or thing at the start of something. Additionally, the word “first” does not mean eternity but a person or thing at the start of something. Similarly, it can be said concerning the words “last” and “end”: neither of these denote eternity, but rather, just as it says, the last or end of something. The Alpha and Omega symbolism only emphasizes the same thing, since Alpha is the first or start of the Greek alphabet, and Omega is the last or end of the Greek alphabet.

How, then, do these terms apply to both the Father and the Son within the domain of each? Some have noted that Jesus is the first human to be raised to life without end by Yahweh his Father, thus he is called the “firstborn of the dead”. (Colossians 1:18) He is also the last to be so resurrected directly by God since all others who eventually receive such a resurrection will be through Jesus, not by Yahweh directly. (John 5:21,22; 6:39,44; 11:25) Thus there appears to be a connection between his statements that he became dead was now alive forever and ever. In both instances where the terms “first” and “last” are used of Jesus, his death and eternal life is also mentioned in the context. (Revelation 1:17,18; 2:8) Jesus’ holding the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:18) shows the authority given to him by his God of releasing all who are in death and hades. — John 5:27-29 (New American Standard); Revelation 20:11-13.

However, there is also another application that could be meant. Each — both Jesus and Yahweh — is the first and the last of his peculiar kind: Yahweh is the first and the last of his peculiar kind, in that he is the first and the last one to be increate, that is, never to have been created. No one was before Yahweh in this sense and no one will be after him in this sense. The Son is the first and the last of his peculiar kind, in that he is the first and the last to have been directly created by God, all other creatures having been indirectly created by God, that is, through the agency of the Logos. Thus the Father and the Son are both unique — which is the meaning of these three expressions — but each of them is unique in a different sense: The Father is unique in that he is the only — the first and the last — being never created; the Son is unique in that he is the only — the first and the last — being ever directly created by Yahweh without the assistance of an agent, which creative assistance by the Logos occurred in the case of all the rest of creation — the Logos himself being excepted. (John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 15:27; See our discussion on John 1:1) Thus Yahweh is the first and the last, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of increation — the only being who never was created. The Logos is the first and the last, the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end of God’s direct creation. These terms used with reference to the Son are equivalent to his being called: “the only begotten of the Father.” (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9) Their use with reference to the Father implies that he is from eternity, though not directly teaching it, the direct teaching being his uniqueness in that he never was created or begotten, as was the Son.

Answers to Objections

Some have replied that there can only be one first and last, although their reasons for saying this are vague, to say the least. It seems they wish demand a restricted application, usually that this expression means eternal, so that it could only apply to God Almighty. It is true that there can only be on who is first and last as God Almighty, and likewise that there is only one who was never created, who has always been. But we have no reason to restrict the term in application to God Almighty, except to satisfy the whims of those who wish to use it thus to prove that Jesus is Yahweh, which, in effect, would make the whole argument circular, that is, ‘we believe that Jesus is Yahweh, thus we believe that the expression first and last must be used in application to God Almighty only, and thus this proves that Jesus is Yahweh.’

We have already shown above that there can be more than one first and last, depending on what is being spoken of and its application. We can also provide the following illustrations: Suppose Brother A goes to a Bible study in SW Philadelphia, and Brother B goes to a Bible study in South Philadelphia. Brother A is the first arrive at the Bible study and SW Philadelphia, and Brother B is the first to arrive at the study in South Philadelphia. Likewise Brother A is the last one to leave the study in SW. Philadelphia, and Brother B. is the last to leave the study in South Philadelphia. You have two who are first and two who are last. Additionally the first and the last line of one book is not the same as the first and last line of another book. Likewise, both Yahweh and Jesus are first and last in their respective applications of that term. Regardless, our trinitarian neighbors will have to agree that there are two persons who are referred to as ‘first and last’, both God the Father and His Son.

Related Links:
We do not necessarily agree with every conclusion reached by these authors.

http://jehovah.to/exe/discussion/nwt_asks.htm

http://jehovah.to/exe/general/cri_review.htm

Is Jesus “The Alpha and Omega”? Friends of the Nazarene - January 1999 issue.

Misuse of Similarities

Filed under: Christianity, Discussion — Admin Staff @ 4:59 am


The scriptures often use words and titles with a difference of meaning when applied in different ways. Many, with a desire to prove that Jesus is Jehovah, will often take these words and try to make them appear to mean something other than intended, that is, that Jesus is God. Let us look at one of these titles:

Isaiah 37:16: O Yahweh of hosts, ELOHIM of Israel, who dwells between the cherubs, you are the ELOHIM, you alone, of all the kingdom of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. — See also 2 Kings 19:15

Exodus 7:1 And Yahweh said to Moses, `See, I have made you ELOHIM to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother is your prophet

Does this mean that Moses is actually Yahweh, since Yahweh said that he made Moses ELOHIM to Pharaoh? Of course not! Yet such reasoning is often used of Jesus when he is a few times referred to by the Hebrew and Greek words that are often translated as “God”, such EL, ELOHIM and THEOS. In our study on Hebraic Usages*, we have demonstrated that the Bible often use these words in their more basic meaning of power, strength, might, rather than in exclusive manner that it is being used in Isaiah 37:16. Understanding this helps to realize that ELOHIM applied to Moses in Exodus 7:1 takes on a superior meaning of might. Thus Yahweh made Moses “mighty” to Pharaoh. And Yahweh gave Aaron to be Moses’ spokesperson. Likewise, with Jesus. Jesus will, in the Millennial Age, be called by the name “Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom”**. (Isaiah 9:6) Part of this name does contain the designation EL, and often rendered in conjunction with the word “gibbor”, by the term “Mighty God”. However, the usage of EL here is not regarding the exclusiveness of Yahweh’s godship, but rather of Jesus’ might and power that he will exercise in the age to come. And yet Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh that will perform the carrying out of his promise concerning the Messiah; it is Yahweh, in other words, who gives to Jesus this designation, similar to the manner that Yahweh gave the designation ELOHIM to Pharaoh.
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Often in the scriptures we read of various servants of God who performed great acts on behalf of God. Nevertheless, at the same time the scriptures may refer to these acts as being performed by Yahweh (Jehovah) himself. So, now let us look at another set of scriptures:

Exodus 12:51 - It happened the same day, that Yahweh brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts

Yahweh alone did lead him [Israel/Jacob - verse 9], There was no foreign god with him. — Deuteronomy 32:12.

Exodus 15:22: Moses led Israel onward from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.

Does this mean that since both Mose and Yahweh both delivered the Isralites out of Egypt, that this must mean that Moses is Yahweh? No one seriously claims that Moses is Yahweh, yet according to the reasoning of those who wish to use similar arguments to prove that Jesus is Yahweh, it would seem that these scriptures should definitely prove that Moses is Yahweh. Of course, in reality, Yahweh often takes the credit for what his servants do in his name. (see scriptures below) Just because one scripture says Yahweh did this or that, and another scripture says that Moses, Gideon, Jesus, or another of God’s servants did the same, does not mean that any of these are Yahweh.

So how is it that it can be said that both Moses and Yahweh delivered Israel? Taking the Bible as a whole we learn:

Psalm 77:20: You [Yahweh] led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.

Hosea 12:13 - By a prophet Yahweh brought Israel up out of Egypt, And by a prophet he was preserved.

In this manner it could be said that both Yahweh and Moses brought Israel out of Egypt; it is likewise with the greater Moses, Jesus. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19.

How well this illustrates also how Yahweh, speaks and performs works by means of his Son, Jesus (John 1:17; 3:34; 5:36; 10:25,32; 14:10; Ephesians 3:9, KJV; Titus 3:6), and delivers the world from sin and death through Jesus, the one like Moses who is also sent by Yahweh. Thus both Jesus and the God of Jesus can be called savior, since Jesus, like Moses, is the one sent by Yahweh, and performs his works in Yahweh’s name.

The scriptures abound with cases where Yahweh uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force. — Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.

1 Kings 1:48 - Also thus said the king [David], Blessed be Yahweh, the God of Israel, who has given one to sit on my throne this day, my eyes even seeing it.

1 Kings 2:24 - Now therefore as Yahweh lives, who has established me [Solomon], and set me on the throne of David my father, and who has made me a house, as he promised, surely Adonijah shall be put to death this day

1 Chronicles 29:23 - Then Solomon sat on the throne of Yahweh as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

Solomon’s sits on the throne of David — yet he sits on the throne of Yahweh. No one considers that this proves that David is Yahweh, yet many use the same kind of reasoning to try to prove that Jesus is the only true God who sent Jesus.

A similar usage is often demonstrated in the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated “worship”. Yet if one actually considers how these words are used, and claim that every time that these words are legitimately used of a person, that it proves that the person who receives such homage is Yahweh, one would have many human on earth who would be God. Let us briefly examine a few scriptures.

Matthew 4:10 “You must Worship Yahweh your God and you must serve him only.”

1 Chronicles 29:20: And David said to all the assembly, Now bless Yahweh your God. And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshiped Yahweh, and the king.”

Thus the King of Israel [whether David or Solomon is meant here is not clear] would appear to be worshiped along with Yahweh. According to our neighbors who wish to believe that similar scriptures such as these prove that Jesus is Yahweh, this would make the King of Israel also Yahweh.
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Of course, context in all situations, even in the scriptures that are used to supposedly prove that Jesus is Yahweh, shows that there are circumstances where titles, descriptions, etc. are used in a relative sense.

We have no reason to believe, then, that when Jesus is used to carry out the will of Yahweh, and the work he does is elsewhere described as being done by Yahweh, that this is proof that Jesus is Yahweh, anymore than such is proof that Moses is Yahweh.


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